An opinion from an Aussie
 

As I live in Australia, and in a fairly small town, as well, my access to quality representative artists is fairly low. The two that I know are very jealous of their knowledge and absolutely will not teach (or share).

Until I found this forum 2 years ago, I felt I was living in a vacuum, unable to improve, and not satisfied with what I was able to achieve. When I joined, I felt that I had found people that I had something in common with. I do think it was more interesting to visit before people were vetted. I must admit, I have been reading and not posting (although I do log in when I read).

It is the only forum I visit, I check in every day. I would like to see more postings, and more activity.

As a result of the confidence I have gained from visiting, reading and putting advice into practice, I am now working on a major exhibition and several commissions.

Even though my daughter's application was rejected just this week, I hope the forum stays, so she can reapply in the future. I think that the forum is probably more use to artists who are still learning their trade, than to the full time professionals.

I did vist WetCanvas once, and got blasted by some sick, jokey thing that someone posted. I logged off, disgusted.

I can understand your dilemna, Cynthea. Your time is very valuable and access to this forum for artists all over the world is invaluable.

Ii'm not sure that charging a fee would work, although I would be prepared to pay a small annual subscription. Maybe a 30 day trial might work. You have to be able to get people to visit regularly before they will see the advantages of subscribing. Perhaps you could offer limited access to the Forum to non subscribers. Maybe there could be areas they couldn't view. The knowledge that there is more info available than they can currently view might make them appreciate the opportunity to subscribe.

I appreciate the look, the layout, the "no pop ups". I think some people get a bit full of themselves sometimes but that is true of any group. I enjoy the heavy discussions, even if I can't figure out what they are on about sometimes.

regards, Margaret Port

I would be willing to pay a fee. The way I look at it, all the information and experienced viewpoints are easily worth a small fee considering all the other things I seem to spend money on. I'm a tightwad and the cost seems well worth it to me. Not much in this world is free anymore and I'm surprised all this good information has been available for free thus far.
Amy O.

I think Michele has a good idea there. Charge a one time nominal fee for continued participation in the forum for existing members and any new members upon approval into the forum. 30 day initial viewing trial period is a good idea.

I think that people are more receptive to a one time "setup" fee than an annual fee.
This is by far the classiest and most informative art forum in existence.

I'm in favor
 

I think this website and forum is without a doubt one with a very high quality, loaded with excellent information for the serious portrait artist.

I would be willing to pay a fee, I hope others feel the same way I do. I feel it's very much worth it. The SOG forum adds to ones on going education in the field of portraiture and fine art. This place raises the standard and makes one want to try a little harder, which is very good for ones career.

I mean where else can a person so easily collaborate with such top successful portrait artists in the field?

Uh-oh
 

Have I been kicked out already? My reply to Scott's new work in demonstrations is not being posted.

Well Jimmie, I have been kicked out with you ...I tried posting to Scott's twice and it wont post.!

Jimmie,

You have not been kicked out.

No one has been kicked out. Perhaps it's a momentary or not so momentary glitch on the server.

Lisa Gloria's membership has been removed at her request.

Feedback to fee
 

I'd like to pay for some information, like Cynthia's advice on photogragh taking, there are many others, just an example.

Teachers of the university I graduated read this forum, ... that is my concern, too.

Fee for membership
 

Hello - I've never posted before, but would like to add my opinion(s) to the discussion regarding charging fees for membership.

First off, I'd like to say thanks to all of you (Cynthia in particular) for taking the time and energy to keep the site going. I've been painting professionally for 3 years, and have found nothing on the web the comes close to the quality of your site.

However, I was unaware that my lack of posting was a problem. I'd lost my password and was too lazy to do anything about it until now, but I will certainly participate in the forum in the future.

Yes, I would pay a fee - and in particular, would pay more on top of the fee for demos.

Bottom line - I think we all need this!!

Thanks - Lynn Der

SB,

Me??? These artists are the one to ask, not me. I know nothing on the subject. :)

I'm not sure I understand what you are concerned about. Can you tell me more?

I haven't read all of the responses, so forgive me if I'm repeating anyone else's ideas.

Since I've been a participant here for some time now, I think I would pay to keep it. I'm not sure I'd pay if I were new here, and didn't know how much I would benefit. Therefore, a free trial period may be useful.

If you don't allow non-paying people to read posts, how will they know what they'll get for their money? Read for free--post for fee.

Here's a major issue. You don't want to discourage well-known pros from participating. I think they should all get free memberships, while guys like me should pay. This reminds me of my chess playing days. All chess tournaments, it seems, waive the entry fee for grandmasters. Everyone else pays. Unfortunately, there's no such measurable level in art. Cynthia would have to decide who has reached a high enough level of skill to be invited to participate for free. A very sticky spot to be in for her. This forum's greatest assets are artists like Marvin, Karin, Igor, Scott, and Tim. If they have to pay to be members, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

That'll be two cents, please.

Lynn,

It's not you specifically, but if you multiply that many times over, then one starts to wonder whats going on and the time invested in the approvals seems a waste.

Missing a opportunity
 

I haven't read all the posts but here are my two cents since someone emailed me and asked for it. I once mentioned a certain product on this site and I got a very nice "thank you" from the company after because it help add to their sales. Since you have such a large pool of professional artists drawing eager art students to this site, it seem to only make sense that you could sell space for a small amount of advertising if are needing money to keep it afloat. I visit another forum that does this quite successfully for photographers.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1021

You just might see a profit in a very short time. And artists visiting your site for the first time will be more likely to participate. I know when my art video is done I would love to advertise here. Just a thought.

Morgan

Re: Responding to Scott's post

Folks, not to worry. Scott's post is in the Demo area, which as I understand it is a moderated area for posting -- which is to say, the posts queue up for review by the Demo moderator, Karin Wells. This is NOT to censor anything. It is in keeping with the plan to limit the Demo area to the demonstrations themselves, without unrestricted responses. This in turn is hoped to encourage prospective demonstrators -- especially time-short experts -- to share with us what they have and let it speak for itself, without necessarily asking those experts to return and spend additional time.

Please be patient until the submitted posts can be reviewed. It may be that a separate thread outside the Demo area will become the more suitable place for expansion.

Linda Der wrote:

Perhaps this problem of people signing up and never posting could be alleviated if they were all clearly told up front that their active participation, while not exactly required, is kind of expected.

Linda Der also wrote:
Perhaps a two tier membership system might work, with an extra fee to access areas like demos and critiques. Then a paid teacher or demonstrator-of-the-month could be enlisted. I realize that this could end up adding more administrative work for you though, Cynthia, not less.

I did any automatic email out to all members, since many don't visit very often. Thanks for coming on.

Hah! Morgan, it's because it was YOU doing the recommending. But, see that Dick Blick banner I have at the top? I've gotten about $20 from it over a period of several months.

There are other issues. If you have time to glance over some of the earier posts, you will see what they are.

And, I'd love to have you advertise.

Jeff,

Yep, got that one covered.

As said, there will be a free trial period. But, it's interesting, there's always more "guests" on than there are registered members. Right now there are 12 members on and 20 guests. Almost always there are a lot more guests reading and lurking than members on. Every one of those guests that downloads pages and images increases the bandwidth.

Definitely!

Stroke of Genius main site members all get free membership. That covers everyone you mentioned except Tim and Scott. Scott? Why aren't you on my web site. But, I would certainly make concessions in order to have the quality artists come on.

please delete

Cynthia, I appreciate the amount of time you spend making this forum a class act - to compare to Wet Canvas is not even possible from a standpoint of valuable information.

I would most definitely pay a fee for access - were it not for this site, I would not even be aware that a career in portraiture was possible, and would not be working toward that as we speak. I don't post on the forum a lot, but I have learned more from this site than I have by reading all of my art magazines and books combined. I don't have the time to attend a lot of workshops, and as such find the access to professional artists' working opinions and methods on this forum invaluable.

And where else would I have found out ahead of time that I can be looking forward to a Morgan Weistling video?? :)

Comes out to the same dollars. :)

Very often they do that now.

Actually, we could use more pros giving critiques. Marvin? Why don't you critique? That would be very helpful.

Stacy,

I know! Morgan, you have to let us know when it comes out.

I've been browsing the responses, and seen much mention of selling ads. While this may offend some, it's a business decision, plain and simple.

You might want to look into Google AdWords. All you have to do is sign up and add their code to your site. They sell the ads, you don't. What I like about it is that you don't get commissions on sales. You get paid for clicks. I have found that commissions from affiliate programs seem to be non-existent. With AdWords, SOG visitors don't have to spend a nickel for you to make a commission. They just have to click the ad.

I've read their terms of service, and I saw that you have to be very careful not to encourage people to click the ads. All clicks have to be completely unsolicited. But the ads are topic-specific, so they will appeal to artists.

Give them a look. www.adwords.google.com/

Reading Peter's post re-enforced a notion already brewing as I read thru the posts.

I rarely post here, because the level of activity is much lower than other forums and there isn't a lot of new info week to week, and because I'm not drawing or painting at a level which is going to elicit a constructive critique beyond "You need to learn how to draw.". In my humble opinion, these two things are both related to the targeted audience at SOG ... fulltime professional portrait artists. There isn't as much activity here because most of you guys are probably earning your living in front of an easel or a classroom, and you just don't have time to contribute as much as you might like. And since the site is geared toward working pros, nothing I post for critique is likely to receive notice, and even less likely to elicit suggestions from a professional artist. Maybe we're back to the 'time factor' with this one. If a professional artist is going to take time away from earning a living he or she probably isn't going to waste it by commenting on my student-level crap. Believe me ... I understand on both counts. I knew that coming in two years ago.

All this said, however, I have received a lot of excellent advice on things such as cast drawing, sight size, color theory, etc. I have gotten info here that I probably couldn't get from other forums as readily. Steven, Marvin, Tom and others have been VERY gracious in answering my beginner questions, as time allows them to. Being self-taught, and not having access to a classical portraitist in my area, I consider this forum an invaluable resource.

So, my vote would be to have two functional areas within the site. One area free for those whose work is not yet at a level which will elicit feedback from a working pro (though we have had a couple 'peer critiques' which were excellent ... thanks Jeff :D). Sort of an area for the student-level hacks among us who aspire to amateur glory to ask questions about techniques, materials, etc. And then another area for the working professionals to compare ideas, offer critiques, etc. among their peers who do this for a living and who don't usually have the time to participate further.

I want to say again, so it's not taken the wrong way: I definitely understand that some of you paint to put food on the table and don't have the time to baby-sit us beginners. I am sincerely grateful for the info that some have given so graciously.

Does any of this make sense? A free area for students of portraiture, and a pay area for those who need/want critiques or have more advanced needs?

Phil Minh Thong Holbrook
(Teacherless Amateur Hack Aspiring to Greater Things)

For valuable information-- no paying, no gain.

I'll have to look. I'm aware of their program where you pay Google based on ad words (keywords) and that puts you in the right highlighted area of returned resulst. Are you sure this isn't what they are talking about?

A few tasteful and relevant ads are not obnoxious. You have to get a lot of traffic to make an affiliate program worthwhile. I get about $800 a year from my bookstore. Seems some Forum members don't know I have one. I should put an ad on the Forum for my bookstore.

But, guess what? Google is an Amazon affiliate. So, if you use Google to search for a book title and then buy it from Amazon, they get a commission. They have to be makding a bloody killing on that...very clever.[/QUOTE]

What is the big deal
 

I don't see what everyone is making such a big deal about. Even if we agreed to 40 bucks a year that is only about three dollars a month, which is not even a dollar a week- I haven't posted a lot, but I have read on and off and the information has been useful. Even more importantly, since I am kind of isolated from other artists - as are many of us who spend our days painting alone - there is some bit of inspiration derived from seeing art from some of the people on this forum and hearing them express their ideas, that I really can't get anywhere else right now.

In the end we all need to make the assessment of the value of this to us - As for me, I will just buy one less pack of gum (used to be cigarettes) a week.

In case anyone has any doubt of the amount of traffic from non-members, there have been over 1000 views of this thread as of this writing. I think it was around 270 sometime last night. This may yet be the most read thread ever!

That's the other side of the same coin. The ads they sell are placed on hundreds of websites, and the website owners make the commission.

Here's the direct link to the program:

https://www.google.com/adsense/?hl=en_US

Jeff,

I'll check it out, but it would have to be very targeted and unobnoxious advertising.

Also, if you haven't checked out the other posts, there are other reasons to charge a fee.

I may be on the low end of the totem pole, but I have to put my thought in. As a college student, making next to nothing, trying to find the time to do my own art, and having little grocery money, and most of all not being able to buy art supplies... I just can't really afford it. I could see having a one time fee. A lot of the people on this forum seem to be doing well in the field of art. I on the otherhand barely have a name in the art world and from what I have learned so far on this site has been great. But the fact that their are many college students such as myself hoping to possibly join, the fee cuts them away in a heartbeat.

The 30 day trial membership isn't a bad idea, but not many people can gain much in 30 days. Because there just isn't enough members that actually critique works or post much at all. I have been a member for a little more than a month, and I have posted a few of my works. The only one who has really said anything about my stuff is Steven. And I thank you greatly for that Steven.

In my opinion, their just isn't enough new posts or posting members to really charge a fee. As to what Peter Jochems has said about a Paypal donation, that is an excellent idea. And from what I have heard, you could probably make a good amount with that.

From my stand-point, I just have no way of affording the fee at this time.

Thanks,

Chase,

As mentioned before, students and hardship situations will be given special consideration.

There's no reason the trial period has to be 30 days. It coudl be 60 days.

It's interesting the viewpoint of value. I don't know about anyone else, but if I go out to eat, it's usually at least $15.

Well, now that I've voted, I feel compelled to post - albeit it is for the first time. I guess I'm one of those characters who wreck the curve by joining and not posting.

But - - I have reason to be reluctant. After my request to join the forum, I was accepted shortly thereafter. Of course, I was obliged to read the guidelines. After doing so, I decided to post right away would be inappropriate. As a beginning portrait artist with an extensive portfolio of nudes, landscapes and illustrations - I have little to share in terms of experience or imagery. My forethought was that I might instead continue to read the forum, gaining valuable insights from those who DO have something to contribute. Then, perhaps, when I finish the commission upon which I am currently working, I too, will have something to share. The "attitude" (for lack of a better word) of this forum comes across as such that anything I might try and contribute right now would be regarded as superfluous, if not outside the guidelines. Little did I know that my hesitation to jump right in would be seen as irksome. I had honestly thought the converse was true.

Don't get me wrong - I have no problem with upholding these standards, and I applaud Cynthia for setting the bar at a height that weeds out the chaff. However, were I paying for rights to post within this forum, I would hope that some of the tight parameters might be loosened a tad.

Jimmy Arroyo stated in an earlier post that he considers his figurative (nude) work to be portraits of a kind. I share that same attitude. As you probably know, the Portrait Artist Forum has the market cornered in terms of quality of work and quality of critique (due, of course to the quality of its membership). However - it is limited solely to portraiture. Should this become a paysite, might I suggest broadening the subject matter? Could this be done while maintaining the same degree of quality? I imagine it could.

The Wetcanvas site has been brought up in this thread. Regardless of how they recoup expenses, it does not hold a candle to what happens here. Yet, I have posted work there. Why? As I've said, there is, apparently, no place for works other than strictly portraiture here. There IS no other forum like this one in terms of quality representational realism - but it revolves aroundonly one subject ! I find that too limiting to pay for it.

Cynthia, please post a mailing address!
 

I have long been of the opinion that portraiture is the highest of the fine art forms. I believe a portrait artist is absolutely unlimited in what he or she can paint.

Further, only a relative few people have enough talent to do it well; fewer yet have the drive it takes. Still, there are many of us who want to do portraiture, until we discover how brutally difficult it is. That accounts for many of the people who sign up, but don't participate. With the best of intentions, they think, I'll post something for critique when I get good enough. Of course, most of the time, this never happens.

Some of us simply discover the market for formal portriature is small. As in my case, I have gone where my success has led: into illustration, where I can still paint people and the lessons learned on this forum still help me. But I don't post any of that stuff because this is a portraiture forum, and I want to honor Cynthia's wishes to keep it focused.

That speaks for my lack of participation.

But what I have learned here is invaluable. I could not have picked it up by reading a book because the book cannot look at my work and say "these shadows should be cool," or "that jaw is sticking out the side of that face," as Steven has done, phrased much more graciously than that, of course.

Still, I'm the typical starving artist. What I earn from my art would make a church mouse feel wealthy by comparison. So I don't think I could pay a subscriber fee.

But I would be willing to send a check right now to show my support and appreciation for the help and encouragement I have recieved in the past. It won't be very much, but it will be from the heart.

Cynthia, why don't you post a mailing address? Maybe there are others like me?


A sad truth:
People will rarely pay for something if they can get it for free. And if they can get a cheap junky version for free, they usually won't pay for a good version. It's sad, but we are a race of cheapskates. It is inherent in our psyche (generally speaking.) I myself am not exempt - nowhere is the phenomenon is more obvious to me. Clearly, there are exceptions, cases in point being those who contribute advice on this forum and freely share of their time and hard-won knowledge.

It's clear that a fee will diminish the volume of paprticipation. But maybe not the quality if, as Cynthia suggests, the expert contributors are not required to pay. Maybe the quality would even rise dramatically with less time being spent educating beginners on basic composition, how a brush should be held, how to post, etc.

So, if the forum continues to be available I will continue to access it as needed.

Will

There are many ways to participate in the forum other than posting your work for critique. If someone doesn't feel ready to do that there are still a lot of other things they may want to ask about or suggestions they might have.

I have learned many valuable things from artists on this site who would call themselves beginners, when they have made suggestions about my own work in the critique section, or when they have mentioned an experience they had using Liquin, or a website they've found for inexpensive art supplies etc. Artists of all levels can ask questions about materials, photography, marketing and so on. I learn from those questions and the answers that others give, too.

The subjects of nudes has come up twice now. I'd have to discuss that with the board. Yes, we do have a very narrow focus because the Forum is meant to reflect the nature of the main site. And, the main site does not allow nudes.

Regarding activity, I was gone for about six weeks Nov-Dec and didn't both to delete email notifications I received of all the psots. There were over 1,000 in that six week period. I realize compared to big forums, that's probably not much. But, considering our small membership and narrow focus, I think that's quite a bit.

Fees
 

TROUBLE SHOOTING A BUSINESS PLAN:

Rule #1. If it isn't self-sustaining, find out why.

Rule #2. If you provide a service or product that is deemed valuable, then expect to be paid for it.

I assumed (Oh,Oh), this site was at least self-sustaining. Cynthia seems like a nice lady. She should make a profit if there is a service that is valuable to others. Will people deem the service worthy of payment? I can't even imagine the time and energy it takes to run this site! You don't have to convince me that it takes both,(at huge amounts of each). One thing I think you could count on, is just who REALLY values this place!

On a different note, The government developed the internet as a way to communicate between defense systems. I'm sure it was a joke when Al Gore's name was mentioned.

Once again, this place is pretty special.

Changed my mind
 

Oops, I originally selected that I would not be willing to pay a fee, but on second thought, I would be willing to pay to be a member of this forum. I think paid membership would encourage me to use the forum more frequently and effectively. (I always tell my kids "You get out of things what you put into them.")

So, go ahead and take one vote out of not willing to pay and stick it in any of the pay amount boxes (I don't see a big difference between $15 and $40 per year).

GUILTY AS CHARGED!

Janel