Sorry I spelled "intensity" wrong in that jpg.

I tired to retouch the painting above to just give an example of what I think is meant by color/values in nature and how deception as Marvin teaches it is an important rule in sucessful compostion.

now this discussion is hitting on something fundamental... although it's off-topic in this (indeed tiresome) thread.

Truthfulness in art... That's what it is ALL about... nothing else.

Peter

Tim, your truth in nature and Marvin's deception... from a just learning student I think they both make sense. But only when the compostition is done correctly and can pull it off which I think your saddle still life does.

As to
I heard the Diva was a huge failure and the box office closed by the end of the week. The said soprano ended up some where in Russia playing to half houses in the back alleys of Moscow - all because she never learned any values. Can you imagine?

The truth is overrated, and that's the truth
 

If you are painting on a flat two-dimensional surface any attempt at creating the illusion of form, life, air, depth and space are clearly acts of deception. If you don't understand this basic premise you have NO CHANCE of mastering the art of painting.

A master painter is one who utilizes their understanding of visual perception to enhance the illusionistic qualities of the scene depicted on the canvas.

The only real truth in painting is in attempting to reveal that the painted surface is flat, flat, flat.

Eternal truth, now that's a horse of another color.

Speaking of horses, I tell my students: You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, you can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think.

http://forum.portraitartist.com/show...&threadid=1629


Thanks Marvin.

Peter

Well! We all agree again! "If it looks good it is good!"

Painting is deception. I just think the more respectful we are to the subject in all its parts the better the deception works.

We've all seen painters that paint from their imagination. It shows everytime. It lacks form and depth and correct color and good light, every time. The other end of that is to paint precisely what you see form nature. Now, we all fudge for artistic reasons and those reasons increase through the years as we learn more.

When we best fool people the work seem as if you can see miles into the canvas.

Thaulon Frits; "On the River"

Absolute truth
 

I think the ultimate in absolute truth in painting is Konstantin Malevich's 1918 creation, "White on White". Yeah, it's pretty much a square of white canvas, with another square inside it. No fudging there, no illusion whatsoever. It is what it is.

Not me
 

Either you deceive or you are faithful. The only gray area is at the top of my palette (neutral grays).

Some things must be exaggerated and others played down for the sake of the overall effect.

Beyond that, I categorically refuse to agree with everyone. If I'm in agreement with what everyone thinks then I know there must be a better answer out there. I am faithful only to my painting (and my wife). Show me a better way and everything I know and do is history.

Grasshopper- you're learning!

Also Ingres was ten times the painter that David was.

Ingres down your head Tom Dooley!
 

Ingres was a great painter with many wacked out ideas. But a great painter, none the less!

I guess some jokes should be missed Tim. :)
I deleted my golfer.

20 >9
 

Corot saw 20 value scale.
(From the book: "Depth of Glory")

Wow Marvin,

The goofy drawing is something you just ignore in the Ingres? (like nature). And still he is better than David? Why? Because you read that somewhere? Most texts will tell you that Bouguereau and Sargent were hacks. In the last 25 years that has slowly been revised, thank goodness.

These statements really tell me a lot about your opinions...unless you were joking. I miss jokes on forums sometimes.

Not joking. I was merely responding to what, in my judgment, was a misguided ranking of two of France

Moderator's Note:

The remaining posts in this thread have been split off to form a new thread entitled "Best Paintings in the Met".

It seemed like the posts were heading off into a very different, and very interesting topic that merited its own thread.