Regarding moderator fatigue, there are not a lot of people who want to be a moderator.

Dear Richard,

As I said it is simply an impression I got how some are viewing the forum, while reading the posts. I am not saying that the forum is snobbish and I don't argue with defending knowledge and capability. I am only pointing out that there seems to be some discontent and 'am inviting old and new forum members to think of ways to improve and increase participation.

Ok, point taken! I never said they evaporated either, but they did loose members. ;)

Here I reserve the right to partially disagree. You are right insofar that there need to be standards. The mere fact that people are already being juried in means that they have to pass a certain standard.

But the forum, by the mere definition of the word itself, needs to be a place where people with common interests can communicate and exchange ideas freely. Tolerance in how we deal with each other and what it is we expect from one another is what needs to be looked at. What does it say about the forum, when members are complaining that they feel ignored, harshly chastised or in some rare cases publicly attacked? What does it say when contributing members feel ignored and taken advantage of? It points to a lack of proper communication between membership.

I have learned tremendously through what other people have shared here and through hard work and initiative of my own have made great progress as an artist. Does this mean I am done learning?! By no means! Does it mean I will digress at times? Certainly! Will I listen to every advise given and follow it blindly? Certainly not! Do I expect everyone who I give advise to to follow it as well. Of course not.

In a forum setting you offer what you have to give for those who are interested and might benefit and you take away what you need . As an avid believer that no matter how accomplished one is, there are always things that can be learned, I'll be visiting this forum in my 90"s, provided it's still here. :sunnysmil

My goal was to attract attention to an occurrence and solicit participation in finding solutions. For what it's worth, I will try to think of ways to contribute more and hope that my feeble attempts will benefit someone out there. :)

Cynthia, I am not surprised to hear that!

If any artist has benefitted from a critique, I feel they should reciprocate by offering one to those who put their work up for comment. It's only fair.

A few words, well said, are better than nothing. "Nothing" is very daunting. One can't help but wonder why- like Enzie said.

Sometimes I am so busy, that I know I would do a disservice to an artist, because I do not have enough time to critique well. But I'll try to make more effort.

How about it, everyone?

Mirror mirror on the wall!
 

I think it's pretty obvious that the reason participation is on the wane is because this forum is heavily flawed. I don't think that the needs or interests of the portrait community are being served at all.

To me, the portrait industry is awash in a sea of mediocrity and the sole purpose of the powers that be is to maintain the status quo. Those who challenge the accepted tenets and refuse to bow down to false idols are summarily dismissed. Beige rules.

I think the bulk of those who choose to not participate here have no interest because there is just not much going on. It's a snooze-fest, a nice little tea sipping society where superficial politeness seems to be the rule. Artists are rebels by nature and need to be challenged. The biggest challenge here is not falling asleep at the keyboard.

I also blame some of the moderators who let their own personal agendas get in the way.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. It's broke!

"Artists are rebels by nature" even though there is truth in this statement I believe this could be the case in many other professional directions. One example a air force pilot and the list can be endless.

If one has had success as a artist one knows that the road the artist travels is in no ways simple. I have personally invested much, in many respects, in order to learn what I know today. Honestly though, I just now realize how much it is I do not know. Still, what I do know, I do not mind sharing with others that are less fortunate. From my vantage point, It is sad to see what is passed along as "masterfully done art" especially in the world of portrait.

I dare any artist to render every hare from life. While using a photo, artists seem to think that perfect hair rendering is to be a must or the portrait is not true to life.
Sure there are paintings and drawings that are quite appealing when not totally rendered but this is no excuse for not knowing the basics. To categorize such art as masterful is falsity. It is unfortunate but true that picture perfect rendering and lack of basic drawing skills is passed of as masterful art. One can deceive some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time.

It is sad to see that many artists of today have not the basic knowledge of drawing but they proudly sell under the title of "fool time pro".

As for the forum it is SO rich with talent and with generosity. The owner of this forum has generously allowed and trusted the members to uphold her perspective of standard. At the same time she has exaggerated flexibility and at times to sincere extreme. It is but individuals, sad to say, that think it is their pet pee and do and can bring any forum down. Having leadership skills is one thing but to blindly think that I am the only one that knows what will benefit another is blind leadership. It is sad when I receive mail from members where they state to me that they have received discouraging mails. It is even worse when members receive instruction discouraging one to help another.

I believe this forum should fly the flag of honesty and stand for true artistry. To be a member means you accepted curtain standards and these standards need to be upheld being a newbee or a moderator. Being a member or moderator entitles you to the same respect but it should not entitle you to abuse someones lack of artistic skill and knowledge. Being a member and especially a moderator allows you to participate, encourage but not to forget the flag of honesty. I have heard many a time, on this forum, that members are tired of receiving pats when they are looking for honest helpful advice.

Still, like it has been pointed out, this forum is not just about critique it is about exchange of ideas and information. In this respect this forum functions quite well. Sure some things need and can be adjusted and improved. I am sure in time individuals will bring forward good suggestions and the forum will adopt the same.

As for the position of moderator I believe that the moderators on this forum are doing a excellent job. It is but one or two that step over the line and forget to notice the big picture. I think that if one wishes to be a leader one must know how to serve, before he/she could properly lead. Stepping on people along the way as one rushes for the position of leader, encouraging rather discouraging excellence is not a good sign of a leader or moderator.

My sincere and best to all

Gee, Marvin, you've outdone yourself.

Then they're partly to blame, don't you think? Must be the same bunch who sit in front of the TV, don't vote, don't volunteer, and wouldn't think of mentoring without submitting a bill for services. The ones who sit in chairs, arms folded, and say "Entertain me. Learn me."

Marvin, if you're going to champion the ideal portrait artist as a rebel, it ill serves your thesis to complain a few sentences later that some moderators have their own self-interest at heart, or that they have a "personal agenda." Is there anyone less interesting than someone who does NOT have a personal agenda? And anyway, do you not have your self-interest at heart? Of course you do.

Lucian Freud is a rebel. Traditionalists aren't. Nothing wrong with that, but no use conflating rebellion with rabble rousing.

Yet you keep coming back. Is there nothing at all that you like about the Forum? If not, why the visits to the snoozefest? And why the contempt, without offering a single practical suggestion, save to bemoan the mediocrity of all other practitioners and to cite unspecified accepted "tenants" (who, after all, merely occupy apartments, though many do have personal agendas.)

How does this compare to the forum you offer on your website?

I wasn't going to say anything further, but since I am the one who stirred the hornet's nest, I need to make another request.

Please let's not attack each other (moderators or members), the world is not perfect and neither are we. Although sad, but mistakes and bad judgments are a daily occurrence and part of being a human being.

The goal here is to come up with solutions to stop loosing people and to create a productive environment. Please let's all forget the past and focus on the future.

Steven, you had me at "you've outdone yourself." Then I read further.

Perhaps I should have stated that, in my opinion, those who aspire to be great portrait artists are rebels. A rebel is someone who questions the status quo and looks for better answers. You can't achieve greatness by doing what every one else does. Lucien Freud is not a rebel, he's an anarchist. Bad example. Nelson Shanks, who happens to be at the top of the current heap, is quite contentious. I don't agree with some of his ideas but I applaud his efforts to shake things up.

The point here being that the gist of this thread is, "why is the forum participation dwindling." I'm offering my point of view. Long winded diatribes in defense of the forum aren't going to put fannies in the seats. At least I have the guts to put out a point of view, be it right or wrong. What are your suggestions for improving participation, Steven?

Regarding moderators, their job is to moderate. Umpires at a baseball game may be lifelong fans of a team they are officiating but their job demands objectivity and a setting aside of personal bias and grudges.

As a poster my job is to state my point of view. My agenda is to open up the eyes of others with the end goal of bettering the lot for all of us. As an educator and a working portrait artist I say to educate others makes things better for all. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's servitude.

I see many artists here and at the conferences buying into a culture of mediocrity because they can't even fathom there can be more out there. Read Philip Hales book on Vermeer, written almost 100 years ago, and see what the great Boston artists felt about painting.

Paxton was actually quite chippy and his student Gammel felt in the long run it hurt him. I understand exactly where Paxton was coming from. When certain commonly accepted practices and ideas are never questioned it can become quite maddening, especially to those who can see that the emperor is indeed naked.

Reading the Hale book was very eye opening. They knock many of the biggies of representational art. Reading this book has encouraged me to speak my mind. My agenda is to speak for the greater good.

How about if some of those of you who don't normally post chime in here.

One of the things I sometimes say to new artists on the main site, don't just sit back and wait for something to happen. Be interested in your site, talk about it, make changes to it periodically to keep it fresh. I said this after I noticed that some people would get a web site and then just sit back and wait for something to happen instead of being proactive. And then they would not understand that nothing happened. I think there may be a similar situation here.

Any group is only as good as those who participate. And, I think those who would like the Forum to be a better place should be proactive about helping that happen.

And in any situation in life, a person can sit back and blame, saying it's the other guys fault. Is it the fault of the Board or moderators that some people have left? In some cases probably. Is it the fault of some members who have chosen to be attacking that some members have left/ Probably. But, the higher road is to take positive action and make positive contributions and not get into the blame game.

Does the Forum ownership have the right to define the parameters for the Forum - to say what it will be and not be? Absolutely. Just because this Forum is displayed publicly for all to see, there is no obligation to be all things to all people.

As defined previously, this Forum is about traditional portraiture - as is the main site. This Forum is not intended to exist by itself - it is intended as a reflection of the main site. It's purpose is not even primarily teaching - it is for information exchange. If teaching results from that, that's great.

By the way, rebellion and diplomacy do not have to be mutually exclusive. Rebellion and tolerance are not necessarily mutually exclusive either.

I think when there have been cat fights in the past that have sent people running for the hills, it is usually as a result of "my way is the one and only true way." Seldom is there only one way to do something and it's an attitude that will scare people and make them run for the hills. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.

There are the forever students. There are the forever teachers. How about if everyone were a bit student and a bit teacher?

I agree. Question is, what are the needs and interests of the portrait community? At one level, it is about repetetive questions of what solvent to use, which brush is best. I think you're in a position to state authoritatively what would serve the portrait community.

Those are good, challenging statements that should elicit some positive input as to how this forum might provide stimulaltion and real value for those who read here.

Enzie, for my part, there is a big difference between active, witty, passionate and even contentious exchanges in discussion that don't fall to the gutter level of ad hominem attack and rancor. Marvin and I had just such a spirited exchange last spring on the subject of materials, yet there is no ill will. (Hey, Marvin, I'm still serious about buying you that beer . . . but I never found you at Reston - what a crowd!)

This forum has been quite unique in maintaining reasonable decorum, yet allowing strong, opposing opinions to be posted. A lot of valuable information results from such exchanges. Nicey-nice Thumper-like chit-chat that "respects" all opinions to the point of levelling all to a subjective LCD is what fades to beige . . .