I'm not saying this at all!

What I am saying is that given the value that people receive from their participation here, I would think that they would be more than willing to generously contribute to the cause, of their own accord. I actually think that you could potentially earn more this way. In the event that these funds prove to be inadequate, whatever money people had donated could always be applied to their membership fees.

There is also a great number of people who read the forum and choose not to actively participate. What happens to them? Ultimately, some of them choose to be members some still lurk. My basic thinking is that by keeping the donations voluntary no one needs to be excluded.

I think that depth and breadth of the forum gives greater legitimacy to the SOG site and makes it unique among portrait artist portals, because it is a unique resource for portrait artists. The forum also gives you access to new artists who ultimately may choose to become SOG members and have you design their sites. I also think that attracting the greatest number of people to the forum is good for all. Why not try to achieve this financial goal in the least restrictive way?

Although you say that special consideration will be given to people with financial hardships, I would think that having to ask for this could be a somewhat demeaning experience. This could be easily avoided.

The bottom line is that it's your forum, Cynthia. You get to make the rules. If you want to charge a fee that

Donations
 

Marvin, I agree with you and you said what I was trying to say so much more eloquently. On page 13 of this thread I said:

"Benevolent" is the word I was searching for, and I agree that perhaps people would contribute more than $15-$40 when asked for a donation instead.

But Cynthia, of course it is your choice and I will be here either way because I value this forum greatly and am happy to pay for the privledge of viewing and posting!

Joan

Marvin,

I chose to open it up for members to express their opinions and see where the majority fell. No matter what decision I make in the end, I won't be making everyone happy.

I have not discounted any suggestion or opinion at this point. However, I just still have a hard time understanding the viewpoint of:

1. One-times fees when the Forum costs are ongoing and artists pay for other recurring fees such as subscriptions and society memberships, which cost more and don't provide every day, 24/7 availability and potential input.

2. Donations as opposed to subscripton or membership fees based on same points as in number 1.

But, I know you've made the point before that you don't do critiques because you feel you shouldn't give your knowledge and time away for free. Isn't there some similarity here?

My sensitive nature prefers the word discussion rather than debate. :)

I do think and hope that with the spellcheck function installed, some moderators will have more time for critiques.

It would also be wonderful if members who have connections to accomplished pros could encourage them to come on so we would have more critiquers available. I've announced the Forum in prior SOG newsletters to the artists on the main site, but it never seemed to do much good.

I think it is fair to be compentated for one

Cynthia,
 

I wasn't sure where I stood in this discussion. I think I agree with Marvin. $15 isn't a huge sum to ask for a yearly membership to anything. However, if we make the comparison to a magazine subscription, you must also realize that at a magazine:

a) Contributors and writers are paid. The amount of writing and knowledge that some artists share on this site could earn them full time positions at any of the art magazines currently in circulation. If membership was to be paid, shouldn't contributors also be paid? Right now, most feel great about sharing freely. But if paid members begin to expect a bang for their buck, and the buck stops at you, contributors may feel used.

b) Magazines use advertisement. Art magazines use TONS of it.

The nature of this site is that of sharing. This is very unlike the world of magazines. Some people on this site live in places where an art education is impossible, and this could be their most valuable resource. If they don't realize that they should donate a whole lot more than $15, well, shame on them. That

Good and interesting points have been made. Tim, you mentioned a sharing environment and where to draw the line between teacher and student. You've been on both sides and so have others. And, there are those who are normally on just one side or the other most of the time because of where they are developmentally and there is room for each of these.


Tim and Marvin,

There are many issues:

1. Preserving the quality of the Forum in terms of membership. We simply won't allow members who are below a certain level of development because it's not aligned with the main site and we don't have enough manpower to handle the resultant critique requests.

2. Maintaining the technical aspects of the forum. This upgrade could well take a week, maybe more of my time.

3. Handling issues that come up on a regular basis...there's more.

If this were totally run by the members, like a co-op, that would free me up a lot. But, there's technical things that most would have difficulty with or not the time to handle.

The primary reason for starting the Forum was for the artists on my site, but it's evolved into something other than that. There are many more members that are not on my site.

And, with donations - will anyone come back in a year and make another one? Or just make one and be done with it?

Perhaps to those who have donated, a yearly email could be sent automatically. Perhaps it could be set up that one would be required to make a donation if they want to post for critiques since that's probably the most active area.

More than a magazine, perhaps this is more like a coop. Take the example of a natural foods coop because we used to have one I frequented. And, a coop has to pay rental space and has to pay the electric, the heat, etc. A refrigerator repair man has to be paid. But, everyone contributes to the coop in some way. Paying a membership fee is rather like paying the electric, the heat, etc. it seems.

So, I'm not even thinking about closing this down, but if it became such a financial (time) drain on me that I was at that point, what then.

Donations
 

Hi Cynthia,

When I have mentioned donations, I am definately talking about donating annually. As you suggested, an e-mail could go out saying it's time for donations once a year.

I'll do either, an annual donation or a membership 'fee', but I thought I might just clarify what I, and presumably others, mean by donation. This may not have any impact on your decision but thought it would be good to clarify.

thanks,

Joan

Thanks, Joan.

Co-op?
 

I like the word co-op. It sounds like the word sharing to me.

Cynthia, you could delegate work off your shoulders to the experienced (moderators), the donations/membership fees could be enough to pay the fridge repaireman, rent and the hound dogs as you suggested earlier and even you and the moderators could get paid also. I believe their knowledge is worth paying for, as the students and paying customers for their art hopefully increase by this forum and site and all the related gains. I believe it is worth it for all.

I like the win-win solutions. Forget emotions and egos, look just at value on all sides. Co-op, hmmmm, co operative, co operation, I like that word. The trouble with the world today is the lack of sharing, compassion, respect for each other, a respectful co operation with each other. As artists, don't we already sit on the outside looking in, that's is why we are so engrossed in the creativity of it all and see the different picture from the rest. Greed and associated egos that are attached with it, is what is ruining this planet. Sometimes, the simpliest answer is the best way to go and the simpliest life, the best lived. Just my thoughts, I voted to pay a continual yearly membership fee. I sacrifice to keep my internet connection, and I will sacrifice to pay membership fee. There are a wonderful bunch of humans on this site who are dedicated and cherished, if only that was enough.

At the end of the day we are all students and we are also the teacher!