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View Poll Results: Are "celebrity" portraits from photos valid?
Yes 10 37.04%
No 17 62.96%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-14-2001, 04:16 PM   #1
David Dowbyhuz David Dowbyhuz is offline
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All critiques welcome from 1st Timer!




This painting measures 36" x 36". While painted 9 years ago, I felt Sept 11th has given it an unexpected poignacy. I would be garteful for a judgement on it's stand-alone merit. (Cynthia has already seen it, and presented a brief opinion.) Can this "low-glam" portraiture style sell? Naturally, it's from photo, and a fairly famous one at that. Are celebrity photo-sourced portraits considered valid or are they dismissed?
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Old 11-14-2001, 05:48 PM   #2
Andrea Evans Andrea Evans is offline
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Paint from life

Dear David,

I just voted no to the question of whether painting celebrities from photos is considered valid. I admit that when I became interested in portraits I painted celebrities from magazines. I was a teenager then and had no one to guide me at that time. I became quite good at it, and the paintings looked very much like the photos of the celebrities, but it was strictly copying. I taught myself to mix colors to match and that sort of thing. Later, I went to college as a studio art major. We drew and painted from live models. Our teachers made it clear that we were not to use photographs. There is nothing else like it. You observe, converse with the sitter or not, interact with this person, empathize, make choices on composition, color, what to include and what to subdue or eliminate, what is the mood, making countless decisions. It is exciting because there is this living person in front of you, affecting you and vice versa. In a physical sense, this person is a mass occupying a certain place in time and space with air moving around and light illuminating their form, with colors reflecting off their surroundings on to skin and hair and casting shadows. Even in repose, people are constantly moving and resisting gravity. And, they are thoughtful, emotional and spiritual. There are so many levels for the artist to explore about a subject. During the process of drawing, painting, or sculpting a portrait, the artist is searching for much more than a physical resemblance.

I went to your website and saw your work. You have the skills to draw and paint really wonderful portraits. I strongly recommend that you paint members of your family and friends from life and build a portfolio. Potential clients seeing these will know these are "real people" like them. Also, the greatest place to learn about portrait painting today is on the web starting with viewing every single page of every single portrait painter on Cynthia Daniel's Stroke of Genius. Also, go to the ASOPA website (they have been a great help) and the Leon Loard website. There are great links to other sites from these. www.therp.co.uk (The Royal Society of Portrait Painters is one of my favorites.)

Best luck to you, David.
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Last edited by Cynthia Daniel; 11-14-2001 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 11-14-2001, 05:55 PM   #3
Cynthia Daniel Cynthia Daniel is offline
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My opinion on using only (or mostly) celeb paintings for marketing commissions

I will summarize/clarify the opinion that I expressed in an earlier email to you regarding celebrity portraits in a portfolio for marketing portrait commissions. Perhaps this is what you meant in your poll question in regards to "valid".

Andrea interpreted the question the way I thought people would interpret it, or one of the ways, which is why I wanted to change the poll question. But, that Andrea is a quick typist and she got a post up there before I could change it. So, the below is what I feel we discussed.

1. It's important to build a well-rounded portfolio as one of the first steps into the world of portrait commissions since generally, people only buy what they can see. So, if a prospective client has a little girl to be painted, you increase your chances of getting a commission if you show little girl portraits in your portfolio...the more charming the better.

2. I also believe the look of success tends to bring success. If you've painted your sister's child, your sister and your father all in appealing marketable portraits, no on ever has to know these are your relatives. They could simply appear to be commissions. In the mind of the prospect, the very fact that others have commissioned you (so they think) gives you credibility.

3. If you feature only or mostly celebrity portraits that are not commissions, to me, it seems to communicate that no one has retained you previously to paint a commission. Of course, if an artist is very successful and has in fact painted many celebs, that's a different story. But, in that situation, the artist's fees will reflect that level of success.

4. Then there is the subject of figurative painting which is not a portrait commission. It is painted by the artist and put up for sale. That is totally valid.

5. There are, of course, exceptions where a portfolio filled with celeb portraits might bring you a commission. But, I feel in order to get into a higher level in fees and stature in the field, you need to start with a well-rounded portfolio of subjects and not just (or mainly) celebs. Of course, some artists specialize in adults or children, in which case, they would build their portfolio accordingly.

Hope this clarifies. And, I agree with Andrea that you have a lot of talent!
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Last edited by Cynthia Daniel; 11-29-2001 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 11-14-2001, 06:08 PM   #4
David Dowbyhuz David Dowbyhuz is offline
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Re: Paint from life

Thanks for the input. It's sure what I'm asking for.

I fully appreciate the tradition of painting from life, and know the limitations placed on purely photo-sourced work, but I'm sure I'm not alone in the circumstances of struggling to make time to paint. I could not give fair attention to a live model, and no model would put up with my erratic schedule.

I'm sure my evolution as an artist will be the poorer for the lack!
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Old 11-15-2001, 01:21 AM   #5
Brian McDaniel Brian McDaniel is offline
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Like you, most of my portraits have been 'practice' paintings from celebrity photographs. It seems as though those are the highest quality photos we can find to work from. At this point for me, however, I have sworn off celebrity portraits til one of them is willing to pay me for it

I think paintings of 'real people' have a bit more 'bite' as far as landing commissions. When I finally got away from the celebs and painted my daughter, many friends and family loved it and it landed me 2 commissions, something I never got from Clint, Elvis or any other celeb portrait I did.

I think when youre starting out, learning to paint and searching for subject matter, its alot easier to spend the time working on famous people. Everyone knows what they look like and can form a judgement based on that. I also think that you learn something new with every portrait you paint, at least I do.

From looking at your web site, I'd say youre ready to start working on portraits of common folks, as Cynthia has suggested. I thought about throwing up my John Lennon portrait here too, but I wont bother. You can visit my web site to see all my glorious junk. (on a side note - at my web site, I have all my portraits lobbed into one page. By the end of the year I'll have 3 or 4 more portraits to add, at which point I'll separate all the celebrity portraits from the 'real people' portraits and perhaps eventually eliminate the celebs altogether.)
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Old 11-15-2001, 10:00 AM   #6
David Dowbyhuz David Dowbyhuz is offline
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Another nail hit squarely on the head, Brian. I went to your site and was surprised to see R.E. Lee, someone I had not so long ago thought to paint (along with a Lincoln).

You're right, the quality of celeb photos with regards to clarity & dimension are superior to most other sources. I did most of them purely to please myself. It's only in the last 3 months that I've exerted myself to see if I could sell, but commissions continue to avoid me in droves. (I'm working on a 50th anniversary, parents & 3 adult kids portrait now for a friend. And of course, you can never charge a friend a "real" price! Who do I think I am? An artist? So I'm basically doing it for the potential word-of-mouth turn around (as well as a token fee).)

A community thanks to Cynthia. Even on short acquaintance, a truly class lady!

Last edited by David Dowbyhuz; 11-27-2001 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 11-15-2001, 10:38 AM   #7
David Dowbyhuz David Dowbyhuz is offline
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Without allowing myself to be drawn into the hopeless morass of life-painting versus photos, let me make some observations.

I suspect a large number of us trying to break-through struggle with devoting time to their art. The constraints of family, modern life & earning a living often leave very little "personal time". (There are few pursuits more self-absorbing than painting.) If I can find 5 hours a week (yes FIVE), I'm doing really good. Purists may deride, and suggest I give it up until I'm able to "be serious", but I hope most of you are more sympathetic.

So, I AM left with "giving it up", or using photos. All painters develop a keener eye than non-painters. (You know, there are only TWO type of people, don't you? Those who paint, and those who don't.) Then, where's the crime in using your god-given, painterly honed, skills of observation to interpret and paint MORE than the eye can see?

By necessity I am (until retirement) bound to my camera and other 2D sources!
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Old 11-17-2001, 03:14 AM   #8
Virgil Elliott Virgil Elliott is offline
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Plagiarism

Any time one copies a photograph taken by someone else, it is a copyright violation, and plagiarism. Art consists of a great deal more than just making a picture, and light-years beyond the mere copying of photographs. If the photographer and the painter are the same person, there is at least no question of copyright infringement, but the question of whether it is art remains open. My advice to any artist below Master level is to lock that camera in a drawer for the next fifteen or twenty years, until you don't need it any more. Otherwise, it will interfere with your artistic development.

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Last edited by Cynthia Daniel; 11-17-2001 at 05:30 AM.
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Old 11-17-2001, 11:11 AM   #9
Andrea Evans Andrea Evans is offline
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Finding time for a portrait painting career

Good morning,
The subject of finding time for a portrait painting career came up. All of the arts require discipline and commitment. Many of us who are starting out or returning to portrait painting are still working our "day jobs," but we do both.

Be professional from the beginning. Portrait painting is your other job or business. Set up hours. Make appointments with yourself, family, friends, clients. Print your business cards and brochures. Make a price list. Identify yourself in your own mind as a portrait artist. Identify yourself to others as a portrait artist. Have confidence in your abilities.

Work in bits and pieces of time. Eliminate, reduce, combine and delegate non-art activities to streamline time and energy. Commit yourself to say one hour or more in the evening after the household has quieted down. Some people are morning people - get up earlier and paint. You will find that any sleep you lose will be compensated for in the sense of accomplishment of having progressed with your goal. (I think it is those endorphins in the brain. You become energized.) Also, lunch time and break times (10-15 minutes) can be used to surf art websites, draw, observe, look at art books, pass out business cards and brochures, talk to people about your art, etc. Not all of a portrait painting career is spent painting. Place an artwork (one of yours or a copy of someone else's--one of the master's) on your desk or somewhere in your office or workplace (depending on your situation and workplace policies). Change the work periodically.

Combine your portrait work with getting closer with your family and friends. Most people are understandably nervous about having someone look at them closely, especially someone they know. This is a great opportunity to gain experience in conversing with people (gaining insight into their personality, interests, etc.) and putting them at ease. After two or three sittings, most people I know relax a bit and actually look forward to this time. Don't feel badly if the first sitting did not produce a "successful" drawing. The greatest artists did many drawings and paintings of the same subject and person. This is GROWTH. You are learning. You never cease to learn. This is also an opportunity to learn the art of negotiation so that they and you get what you both want. From your viewpoint - samples for your portfolio and from your friends' and family's, a lovely portrait.

All of these bits and pieces of time will add up and even in the beginning I am sure you will find that you will be spending at least 20 hours a week working on your portrait painting career -half the hours of a full-time job, an impressive accomplishment.

There was an 18th century woman portrait painter who had 13 children and managed to have a very successful career. I am not good at remembering names, so maybe someone else knows who this person was.
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Last edited by Andrea Evans; 11-17-2001 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 11-17-2001, 11:46 AM   #10
Chris Saper Chris Saper is offline
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Dear David,

Having been in the position (as I suspect the majority of portrait painters have) of needing to work a day job, and grabbing painting hours wherever possible, I wholeheartedly applaud your sense that it is much better to paint than not to paint.

There are a handful of painters perhaps who have never painted from photographs, only from life, but it is beyond me to guess how they pay the rent along the way. It would indeed be a luxury to have a studio ready at hand, and willing cooperative models who arrive on time, don't change their hairstyles. For most people, though it is simply an unworkable demand.

To paint successfully from photographs, I think you need three things:

1. Experience painting from life. If you can get people you know to sit for you, do it. If you can work your 5 available hours to include an open studio in your local area, where professional models will sit (usually for a few dollars an hour, when artists share the fee), do that. But is you can't find a live model, PAINT ANYWAY. You can also use some of your hours from time to time to paint the still life from life. It's something you can set up and leave between sessions, and it will sharpen your skills in seeing values, colors, and edges.

2. Become familiar with the problems inherent in photographs, so that you can apply the skills you have gained painting from life to overcome the limits of photographs.

3. Hours and hours of time. If you clock in your hours at five per week, you will be ahead of where you would be at three per week. If you can work this up to 6 hours per week, then 8, do it.If you can't see #1 above, PAINT ANYWAY.

When I was working a full-time day job (more like 50 hours per week than 40)I would take my vacation time, and use it to attend full week workshops. See if this is something you can do.

To the question at hand (finally): I think Cynthia's comments are on the money. Rather than use celebrity images to demonstrate whether you can get a likeness, be willing to show clients source photos as well as the finished painting, and let them judge this for themselves. There are artists who don't agree with this either, but I can tell you I would never commission someone without having a feel for the degree of likeness to expect.

Spend time learning how to take your own photos, since the way you view and pose your subjects is part of your approach and style. If you do need to work from another person's photos, I agree that you will face copyright infringement problems. I have had several circumstances where I have requested written permaission from the photographer, and to date, have received it willingly. In this case I always credit the photographer in the legend of the work.

I wish you well.

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Last edited by Cynthia Daniel; 11-29-2001 at 06:30 PM.
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