The Munsell Color System for Artists

[Marvin Mattelson]

Juan,

I always appreciate your insights and your knowledgeable aplication of them in your work. I agree totally with your points regarding the confusion of pigment names.

Reilly used as his basis the basic Munsell terminology but adapted it solely for classifying pigments. Munsell used theoretical black and white values. In his system white paint was actually around value 9.5 while black was 1.5. The Munsell system had to encompass all color measurement (fur, metal, etc.). So that is the rationale for the wider range.

Reilly made white=10 and black=0 with 5 in the middle. So obviously you go up in value to get to the middle from black. The usage of black as the highest number notation comes from the printing industry where more black ink equates a darker tone. It does seem illogical when talking about light since a 100 watt bulb is brighter than a 50 watt bulb.

In both systems, black and white are separated by nine equal steps of value.

I think sometimes people change certain terminology so they won't be accused for copying others' works. Who knows who copied who, Ross or Munsell. Ross's name sounds familier. I'll have to check it out.

Chroma is the measurement of steps from neutral. Cad red light is chroma 14 while neutral gray is 0 chroma. This is in both Reilly and Munsell so I don't understand why they can't be compared. This is new to me.

Off topic but how did that varnish turn out?

Take care.

[Marvin Mattelson]

I agree totally Sharon. Intuition always prevails. The question is how to best discover your intuition.

In martial arts the theory is that only through discipline can you ever really know true freedom.

There are many paths to get in touch with intuition.

[Mike McCarty]

Intuitive
Function: adjective
Date: 1621
1 a : known or perceived by intuition: directly apprehended

That's an interesting phrase, "directly apprehended."

The following was taken from MYERS-BRIGGS TYPE INDICATOR

[Juan Martinez]

Marvin,

Thanks for your kind words. Don't bother looking back into the Munsell/Reilly systems, though (in case you were so motivated). I did some digging into Munsell's and didn't see anywhere that chromas from different hue families shouldn't be compared to one another. In fact, they specifically are compared directly. I think the person who told me that they couldn't be so compared, mis-wrote, or I mis-read.

FYI, Denman Waldo Ross wrote a book entitled "THE PAINTER'S PALETTE: A Theory of Tone Relations -- An Instrument of Expression" in 1919 (published by Houghton Mifflin Company). I have a photocopied version. (There's no colour in it anyway. Funny.) It's hard to describe his theories in just a few words as they are comprehensive and complicated (at least in writing, they are). Once you set up one of his dozens of palettes (all of which are based on the same basic principles) I'm sure it becomes clearer. I haven't yet sat down to experiment with them, but I know someone who has and he says that they work marvelously. One of these days ...

Juan

[Sharon Knettell]

Marvin,

I agree completely with you on mastering discplines. I see such poor craftsmanship and total ignorance of the basics of what we call "Fine Art", I do not want to denigrate one method of knowledge.

However I can not see how such a complicated system as the "Munsell" can not but short-circuit the intuitive process.

I have studied color in Asian art as well as queried, its practicioners. They do believe in discipline and have established formats, but as I have said before the have no color theory per se.

Investigating further, they seem to have derived their color harmonies from nature.

Personally, I find the simple formulae of analagous and complementary colors useful, the rest rather cumbersome.

As I now work mainly in pastel, there is no hope of using color mixing recipies of any kind, just a rather constant search for that elusive right stick!

Color, at least to me, works best when one is not thinking. It becomes a little song, a little blue, a hair of red, a dollop of white, and hmmm, just a smidge of burnt sienna.

[Marvin Mattelson]

Sharon,

I think you have a misconception regarding what the Munsell system is about. It is just a way of classifying color. It's a color notation system that classifies color by three factors, hue, value and chroma (intensity).

I never use color formulas. When I hear that someone uses a particular color for a highlight or combines such and such for shadows I shake my head. I think an approach like that is too predetermined for my taste.

I try to arrange the most beautiful colors in the set-up that lies before me. I just put together colors that appeal to my inner sense of beauty and harmony. This is the inspiration for the color I use in the painting I'm working on. No formulas just inner appeal. Before I paint each color, I identify its hue, value and chroma and mix it on my palette.

This sounds just what you're doing to me.

[Mike McCarty]

Before I paint each color, I identify its hue, value and chroma and mix it on my palette.

Marvin,

How do you "identify" these characteristics? Are you doing it mentally as you consult your reference?

I remember reading:

First we observe, then we mix, then we test, and then we adjust. We then stay in this tight loop until we reach our goal.

Is this what you do? Is this done mentally in the blink of an eye or do you refer to a Munsell chart?

[Richard Budig]

One of the first guys I studied with was Dan Greene, who took this approach:

First, he says he asks himself the value of that particular spot on the model.

Second, is it warm or cool?

Third, is it more blue or more yellow (as in aliz or cad red light)

These seem like a more general approach than does this classification system, but it's not a bad way to look at it. Three simple questions that lead, at least to the place you stand when you're at bat -- so to speak. For some reason, it works for me, too. I'm not "selling" Mr. Greene. As I said, he's one of the first with whom I studied, so some of his ideas stuck.

[Marvin Mattelson]

Mike,

When I look at a color, the first assessment I make is how light or dark is it; that is, where would I place it in relationship to white or black paint. By practicing with this system I can come pretty close to judging which of the nine intermediate steps it falls on.

Next I assess the hue. Is it either a red, blue, purple, green or yellow? Or does it fall between two hues? If it falls between two hues which is it closer to?

Then I mix those two hues to the correct value shifting one way or the other until I have the correct hue and value.

Lastly, I determine if the color I mixed is too intense and if so I add a neutral gray of the same value to lower the chroma.

When I place it in the context of my painting only there and then do I know if it is correct. If not I correct it accordingly.

Richard,

Now I know I'm going to get into trouble here but I completely disregard the concept of warm and cool as being too ambiguious for mixing colors. Since warm and cool are relative terms they are useless to me in determining a specific hue. For example a cadmium red is cool, compared to a cad orange but it is warm, compared to magenta. I find that if I want to mix up a red I have to determine if my mixture is either correct, too purple or too yellow.

Assessing a light or a shadow in terms of warm and cool is not precise enough. A warm light can be either yellow, orange or red. I'm much better served by knowing exactly which, if I want to mix my colors accordingly.

This doesn't mean I don't like the work of people who use this terminology. Nor does it mean they're bad people, do bad paintings, or that I go around and say bad things about their Mamas. It just means I don't feel this type of thinking has validity for me, myself and I or my students.

Cool and warm, as well as yin and yang, are very helpful concepts in assessing the general relationships between different elements. Their ambiguous nature makes them very useful in the right context. For accurate color mixing, I think not.

[Sharon Knettell]

Marvin,

Ok, I think I understand.

At any rate, as I once read, your sense of color becomes more sensitive and attuned to the red spectrum as you age.

My own experience is that your grasp of color improves with personal and artistic experience. I find I am taking more chances with color now than ever before. A sort of "what the ****" attitude. If you paint long enough, I think you will want to try riskier color combinations, having run through all the expected ones. There are some benefits to getting older.

Interestingly enough, I find that is just what Degas did, especially in the latter part of his career. He was not, though classicly trained, interested in academic realism, but in saturated and unexpected color combinations.

He was a superb draughtsman, but his later stuff could be said to be quite careless, if we care to nitpick, but, oh, the color!

Sincerely,