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Old 02-16-2002, 04:16 AM   #11
Nathaniel Miller Nathaniel Miller is offline
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The body's energy




Hello all,

This is my first post, so a little about myself. I'm currently finishing my studies in physics at UMC, after which I plan to attend art school (hopefully an atelier-style school), and then to start a career as a fine artist/portrait artist. I'm trying to learn as much as possible on my own (until I graduate), and this site has been incredibly informative. Given the exquisite work done by most of you, and the amount of knowledge and experience you bring to this forum, I haven't had anything to contribute until now....just been trying to learn as much as possible.

At any rate, this topic (the body's energy) is a little more familiar to me. I wanted to mention that not only is it quite effective to treat and diagnose various maladies using the body's energy (qi, or chi in China), but there's also a quite developed system of preventive health maintainence based on the same energy system.

I don't know if any of you have heard of qi-gong (Chinese meaning "the practice of qi"), but basically it is a set of slow, relaxing exercises that improve and correct the body's flow of energy. There are hundreds of qi-gong practices in China, and literally tens of millions of people in east Asia practice qi-gong. Stories like Ms. Daniel's of significant health improvement are common among qi-gong practitioners.

Personally, I have practiced a form of qi-gong (called Falun Gong, or Falun Dafa) for about two years, and have greatly enjoyed and benefitted from it. With this particular practice, there are 5 exercises that are slow and easy to learn. Three of them take about 3 minutes each to complete, and 2 are meditative and can be done for as long or as short a period as you'd like, so it couldn't be more convenient from a scheduling standpoint (I work full time while attending classes, so I stay pretty busy).

Here's an introductory website about Falun Gong in case you wanted to take a look. Everything for Falun Gong is free.

http://www.falundafa.org

Hope you find it interesting,
Nathan
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Old 02-16-2002, 09:19 AM   #12
Karin Wells Karin Wells is offline
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Thank you Nathaniel....what a wonderful website! I intend to contact them and explore this asap.

I think that atelier training is the way to go...please keep us informed.
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Old 02-16-2002, 02:05 PM   #13
Steve Moppert Steve Moppert is offline
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Cynthia,

I'm glad you have found something health related that you can believe in. I think alternate medicine can be good if it's provable.

If anyone is interested in Kinesology from a scientific approach including double blind studies. There is quite a bit of information about it at www.Quackwatch.com at the search window type in Meridian.

Steve
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Old 02-16-2002, 03:20 PM   #14
Cynthia Daniel Cynthia Daniel is offline
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Steve,

Thank you for the reference, however, I'm aware of their web site and did just now read what they said about the device and have read other things there earlier.

When I first encountered the site, it was very obvious to me that the owner of the site is heavily prejudiced in favor of Western medicine. That alone is reason for me to discard much of what he says, since it's obvious he doesn't have an open enough mind to even consider something new.

Western medicine has it's place, but so does the Eastern tradition. And, there are many scientific things that are now commonly accepted, but in the beginning were treated as ridiculous.

In fact, accupuncture is now entering the mainstream of medicine and many insurance companies are paying for accupuncture treatments. Yet in earlier times it was looked upon by Western medicine as quarkery.

As much as we know scientifically, there is so much more we still don't know and who knows what discoveries tomorrow will bring. Throughout history, those who have made the greatest scientific discoveries often did so because they kept an open mind and could think "outside the box".

So, I will continue to keep an open mind since it works for me and allows my life to be filled with the wonder and passion of constant learning.
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Old 02-16-2002, 07:26 PM   #15
Karin Wells Karin Wells is offline
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The website called "Quackwatch" is known for its one-man diatribes. Quackwatch has sometimes cited lopsided or downright bogus "scientific" evidence at times...

Anyone would be well advised to keep an open mind and check any "fact" taken from there.
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Old 02-16-2002, 11:59 PM   #16
Steve Moppert Steve Moppert is offline
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I find it interesting that though the owner of the site (Quackwatch.com) is accused of being prejudiced, he has highlighted links throughout his site that go directly to Kinesiology sites. Making it easy for one to read about Kinesiology in the words of those who promote it.

As far as who has an open mind, I had not heard of Kinesiology until yesterday. What I have found out about it, including reading websites of those who advocate it, is that it is irrational. In my humble opinion. If it can be proven I'll change my mind. Is that having an open mind? Will the believers do the same?

Steve

A Kinesiology website.
http://www.bewellnaturally.net/HTML/...uscletest.html
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Old 02-17-2002, 12:30 AM   #17
Karin Wells Karin Wells is offline
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Since you never heard of Kinesiology until yesterday, I find it odd that your "open mind" slammed shut so quickly on this subject.

I gather that Cynthia (and many others) have had years of direct positive personal experiences that you insultingly trivialize and dismiss.

I trust that you missed (hopefully not ignored) Cynthia's request in an earlier post on this topic, so here is a repeat...

"I am a kindly person and generally very open to the expression of divergent opinions and varying opinions are not discouraged. However, I must mention that if you plan to write a scathing debunk of what I have just posted, that you could be treading on very emotionally sensitive territory."

I think it insensitive (not to mention impossible) to demand that Cynthia somehow must show you evidence of "double blind studies" in order to "prove" and "justify" her sharing of an intimate personal experience regarding her son's illness.

I think you have stepped way over the line from the kindly expression of varying and divergent opinions.
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Old 02-17-2002, 02:05 AM   #18
Steve Moppert Steve Moppert is offline
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Karin,

Wow! It seems that Toxic Overload is the appropriate name for this thread. The main thing that keeps puzzling me on this "forum" is the lack of the permission to be truly honest and open. This is a "forum," not a support group. Forums are public places that allow open opinions...not places where all must agree and be gentle with each other at the expense of the conversation.

Cynthia is a big girl, I'm sure that whether or not I believe as she believes will not hurt her. I doubt that she is that fragile. I have not attacked her, just brought new evidence to opinions that apparently are not popular with the folks on this site. Yet, whenever I voice my opinion there seems to be a quick gathering of the wagons to vilify my opinion.

Let's be clear. Years of experience is just anecdotal evidence and doesn't mean very much. For instance, if I have a friend who has smoked for 30 years and isn't dead then anecdotal evidence says, smoking isn't harmful. There are lots of stories of people getting hope from non-proven tactics, and this hope or relief can come from various places. Yet this sense of being helped is not scientific, nor demonstratable. I am just trying to bring a little less emotion and more facts into the conversation.

I didn't demand, anything of Cynthia, and I said my mind could be changed. That isn't "slammed shut." If you want to be truly sensitve on this Web site, then you will not call me insensitive, but will honor my opinion as well as Cynthia's.

Steve
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Old 02-17-2002, 03:12 AM   #19
Cynthia Daniel Cynthia Daniel is offline
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One of the things I find wrong with Western medicine is that often what the patient experiences matters little in the face of lack of "evidence" to prove the patient did something scientifically proven to cause improvement.

So, if I feel better when I stand on my head, the doctor might say that I couldn't possibly feel better because that subject has never been scientifically studied. Without a study there is no scientific proof to support my feeling better when I stand on my head, therefore I must not feel better. Huh? So, this doctor is now an authority on whether I feel better or not.

I remember thinking about antibiotics when I was 18. Okay, they kill bacteria. But, I reasoned, there are good bacteria in the body too. Hmmm, I wondered if the antibiotics were "smart" and only killed the bad bacteria. But, I'd never heard anything about antibiotics being "smart".

Then, some years later I received the information that antibiotics do kill both the good and bad bacteria in your body, as I had thought. "Good" bacteria...hmmm, sounds like something that should be there and if destroyed by an antibiotic needs to be put back.

More years later I find out how devastating the effects can be of that good bacteria being destroyed. Hmmm, wonder why the doctors don't tell us these things when they give us an antibiotic?

More years pass...now there's finally some doctors starting to tell patients that they need to take acidolphilus after a round of antibiotics in order to restore the good bacteria.

Looks like doctors have become more informed about the subject of these good bacteria in the body. But, I'll bet if I told a doctor when I was 18 that eating yogurt (which contains acidolphilus) made me feel better after I'd had antibiotics, many, if not most doctors, would have discredited my information. And, I specifically remember when I was 18, no yogurt containers claimed "acidolphilus" on the label as many now do.

So, the medical awareness and knowledge on this subject has shifted considerably since my first question at the age of 18.

Bottom line is that I don't consider the lack of scientific studies to be a valid reason to discredit someone's first-hand, personal experience that they feel better and that whatever they did worked.

I doubt that Lorenzo's Oil would have ever been found if those parents only accepted what traditional medicine told them.

And the rapidity with which the medical profession changes their tune is in itself disconcerting...oats lowers cholestrol...oops, we were wrong...fats make you fat, not carbs...oops, no it is carbs, not fats...coconut oil is one of the biggest no-nos...oops, it's not so bad afterall and there's actually health benefits to it...if your cholestrol is high, you're eating too much fat...oops, doesn't much matter how you eat, it's mostly hereditary.

As I said before, Western medicine has it's place, but Western doctors are not my god. I have first-hand experience in both Western and Eastern medicine. It seems to me that to make an informed decision about the workability of Eastern medicine, one would need personal experience from which to judge.
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Old 02-17-2002, 09:26 AM   #20
Karin Wells Karin Wells is offline
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Permission to be "open and honest" is not a euphemism for an intentional and mean spirited attack.

Many people have passionately held beliefs and what is "proof" to one is frequently not "proof" to another (hence the different religions of the world). For example, it is generally thought that to attack another's religious belief is out of bounds. I think that your "demand" to Cynthia to justify her belief by providing nearly impossible "proof" to you crosses over into this area...and you seem to have missed the whole point of what she said.

But she did clearly say that this is a verrrry sensitve area to her and she did NOT want to be attacked. Obviously she is aware that not everyone shares her opinions about western medicine and she has no problem with that...she just doesn't want to be personally and pubicly attacked for it.

I have nothing else to say on this subject...
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